Christians vs. Atheists in Discussions

In the comment section of this post I have been reading the continuing conversation between Ken McKnight and Gary Baker.

Some of the quips are quite humorous:

Gary asks Ken about:

"being the snarky idiot?"

Ken replies:

"Ta,ta, Gary. I hope you and your ego will be very happy together."

But then returns with:

"BTW Gary,

On at least two separate occasions I have complimented Christine on that very point.

It's not just liberals. I tried commenting on the Miss America controversy on the Alliance Defense Fund site. I was extremely polite, yet my comment was cut because I didn't parrot the party line."

Gary replies:

"I was expecting you to withdraw from the discussion. Generally happens to liberals of your intellectual caliber when repeatedly pressed for facts, evidence, and logic which neither their education nor mentality has prepared them for. I must confess disappointment however. You didn't even try to come up with reasonable replies, so I guess that makes you lazy as well as cowardly. Let me know when you grow a spine."

Of course, these are just small snippets of each comment. However, it brings to mind a question that I have had over the course of several years - both while running my discussion forum and this blog. Are deep, true, solid, non-biased, thoughtful, considerate, intelligent, polite, complimentary, uplifting, kind, inspiring, enthusiastic, acceptance of evangelizing attempts, and non-ridiculing discussions actually possible between atheists and Christians?

I have found that in rare moments, there are some areas of agreement. But oftentimes, the discussions are very confrontational.

Tonight, I was reading a comment written by GMPilot who was answering part of a comment written by Sothenes over at my Talk Wisdom forum and I found what he had written fascinating. Here is a copy of the brief discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sothenes

As far as fishing is concerned, imagine how the non-believer feels. He throws his hook into the water and doesn't catch anything. Does that mean there are no fish? Does he fish again because he lost faith in there being fish?

GMPilot:

You don't have to imagine how the non-believer feels, Sothenes; just ask one. It doesn't have to be me, but since I'm here...

I'm not trying to catch anything. It's only Christians like yourself that are seeking an ecclesiastic body count. Besides, the fish have been biting for nearly 2000 years. What sort of bait do you use? Fear of death? Awareness of their sin? Promise of eternal life? It would be interesting to know.

But every fisherman I know of has a story about 'the one that got away'. It checked out the lure, even nibbled at it; but once it was hooked, it fought with all its power to get off that hook, and win its life and freedom. Fishermen usually speak of that fish with grudging respect, because it wouldn't succumb to the trap.

Think of the non-believer as that sort of fish.

Take a look at their signature quotes:

Sothenes:

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."-GK Chesterton

GMPilot:

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken

"The next time someone asks you if you're a god, say yes." --"Ghostbusters"

We can see why GMPilot thinks of Christian faith as "succumbing to a trap" because his signature quote states, "Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I (he) holds in veneration -- courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."

So, how does one witness and attempt to evangelize someone with such an attitude?

Sothenes' signature quote combats GMPilot's view that "there is no God" with the quote: "If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."-GK Chesterton

Christian faith is courageous.

Christian faith is involved with clear thinking.

Christian faith is honest.

Christian faith is fairness.

Christian faith is, above all, the TRUTH!

However, a non-believer thinks that his "version" of "the truth" is completely opposite the Christian's view of truth.

So, this leads me to ask some questions:

1. Where do such conversations lead?
2. How do they usually end?
3. Are seeds of faith planted as a result?
4. Are seeds of doubt increased?
5. Can you think of more questions to add to this list?

As Christian believers who are involved with Jesus' Great Commission command to share the gospel with everyone we can, it is true that we may not know (this side of heaven) how many people we have positively influenced towards salvation in Christ.

I have found that skeptics/non-believers/atheists/agnostics sometimes tell me that my witnessing efforts have actually driven them further away from faith in Jesus Christ. They claim that my judgmental attitude and (fill in the blank!) have solidified their skepticism.

Should believers be concerned about this?

My opinion?

No.

The reason being that a non-believer is in no better (or worse) position in having heard the gospel shared in a perceived "wrong way" vs. not hearing the gospel at all.

Consider the fact that they were separated from God in the first place, so any additional negative influence does not change their destiny in eternity.

However, a seed planted (even if viewed as being planted poorly by the Christian evangelist according to the skeptic) could still sprout towards belief in Christ as a result in the future. This would change the destiny of the already condemned non-believer towards heaven.

Isaiah 57:15-21 NLT -

Isa 57:15 The high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, the Holy One, says this: "I live in that high and holy place with those whose spirits are contrite and humble. I refresh the humble and give new courage to those with repentant hearts.


Isa 57:16 For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always show my anger. If I did, all people would pass away--all the souls I have made.


Isa 57:17 I was angry and punished these greedy people. I withdrew myself from them, but they went right on sinning.


Isa 57:18 I have seen what they do, but I will heal them anyway! I will lead them and comfort those who mourn.


Isa 57:19 Then words of praise will be on their lips. May they have peace, both near and far, for I will heal them all," says the LORD.


Isa 57:20 "But those who still reject me are like the restless sea. It is never still but continually churns up mire and dirt.


Isa 57:21 There is no peace for the wicked," says my God.


Readers, what are your thoughts on this topic?

Judge Righteous Judgment

Sometimes in this life, Christians need to speak out against those who would label themselves as Christian, but whose actions deny true faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

The problem is, some people think that Christians are NEVER supposed to judge anyone, anything, or any behavior - based on what Jesus stated in the following verses:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

These verses must be taken in context. Was he actually saying that no Christian is ever to judge another?

No.

How do I know this?

Because of these Scripture:

Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The following verse points out the proper context in "not judging":

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jesus is the only righteous one who can ultimately judge in eternity.

However, we are told to evangelize and spread the gospel. How could we do the Great Commission without judging what is right or wrong in this life?

Answer: we can't!

Therefore, this exposes the fallacy of the arguments of those who would call Christian believers out for "judging rightly."

1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Last night, a blogger named Euripides of Self-Evident Truths wrote this:

Cover Up
White House staff asked Georgetown University to cover up the name of Jesus that appeared on a stage where President Obama gave a speech. (CNS News) Apparently Obama, nor his staff wanted the televised speech to have any symbols that would (choose one): a) connect Obama with Christianity; b) connect Obama with any religion whatsoever; or c) upstage the media concept that Obama is the Messiah.

In response, I posted the following answer to NObama’s obvious errors:

I was originally horrified by this action from Obama. Still am. But I now realize that it is par for the course for this Muslim (or atheist) who is a Christian pretender!!

However, because Obama is lacking in any biblical wisdom, I just have to laugh at all of his faux pas that keep adding up on a daily basis.

I hate his mockery against Jesus Christ. But after all - we all know what a fool Obama is.

Psa 2:4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.

Psa 37:13 but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming.

Along with the Lord, I laugh at Obama’s foolishness!

Thanks for the laugh…I really needed that!

*******

An “anonymous” blogger chastised me in response:

First off, Christine… I truly hope you are kidding because otherwise you are extremely ignorant for saying Obama is a Muslim pretending to be Christian. Lord only knows that the leader of a nation built on the separation of church and state might not want to be publicly recorded endorsing only one religion.

And then, anonymous also added this:

Christine: It’s not very Christian of you to judge another Christian like you are doing. “He who is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” John 8:7 Obama is not a Muslim. Why don’t you go do a service project and help someone in need, instead of judging just how Christian someone is?

Isn’t this just SO TYPICAL? No one is supposed to judge the obvious anti-Christian actions of another Christian? What planet does this person live on? Oh yeah…that’s right Planet Relativism.

I included the above comment over at Pastor Foster's blog Gay Christian Movement Watch: "Pastor" Obama lectures nation using Scripture

Started my comment thus:

Great post Pastor Foster!! Excellent points all around. ObamaFRAUD is so clueless about Scripture - he doesn’t even know that the “Rock” is a metaphor referring to building our “house” (where we live!) on Jesus!!

Pointing out that someone is miserably misusing Scripture is a righteous Christian act of "rightly dividing the Word of truth." It is not judging the eternal destination of the person in error. If Obama is not born again (as I and many other Christians suspect), then he has his entire life to submit to Jesus Christ before CHRIST judges him in eternity. While here on earth, when people who claim to be Christian cover up the name of Jesus in a church because of "political expediency" - one has to wonder where such a person's allegiance lies.

In the past, I have written blog posts about the doubts that MANY people have regarding Obama's claims to be Christian. The following are just a few of the over 50 posts I have done on this blog about Obama.

Is Obama Really a Christian?

Who Is Obama? Really?

Obama: Death, Deceit, and Lies

Obama is Sickeningly Extreme on Abortion

Obama's Unreciprocated Bow is Gesture of Subservience

Dr. David Jeremiah uses a metaphor and claims that God uses "carrier pigeons" - you and me - to communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world.

Has anyone ever stated or written that Obama has ever done this?

I realize that perhaps he is limited in scope to do such a thing in his current position. However, wouldn't it be strange to learn that he may have never shared the gospel of Christ with anyone, ever, in his entire life?

The true born-again, evangelical Christian life requires something that appears to be non-existent in Obama's life - self-denial.

Self-denial is what is required at the foot of Christ's Cross at Calvary. Confession and repentance of sin is what is required for the blood of Jesus Christ to wash away our sins. Inviting the Holy Spirit of God into the heart after repentance and cleansing of our sin through Jesus Christ is what happens when one is truly born again. Regeneration occurs and the born again Christian dies to self and lives for Christ. This is what Paul reiterates in 1 Corinthians 15. Notice how he makes sure that accuracy (see verse 12) is highly important when sharing the gospel.

Also note that he says we need to "die daily":

1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

That entire chapter has much to consider regarding our attitude towards the truth that is the Person of Jesus Christ.

The end of the chapter contains awesome hope and truth:

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.


1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?


1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.


1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Hat Tips:

Self-Evident Truths

GCM Watch

The Urgency

Over the past few days, I have been praying to the Lord to guide me back towards posts that are more in tune with the reasons why I created Talk Wisdom.

Confession is good for the soul. I needed to confess that I have seen my desire to focus on the gospel of Jesus Christ drift away during this time of great controversy concerning the 2008 election.

I know what readers are probably thinking - that's the understatement of year! Ha!

However, I do not think that such a focus was entirely wrong. I do think that I need to keep posting additional blog posts that lift up the name of Jesus and urge people towards repentance and salvation at the foot of the cross.

The Great Commission was the last command that Jesus gave his disciples before he ascended into heaven. Of course, this is not by accident - it is by design.

The rigor of spreading the gospel that is written about in the book of Acts was tantamount to the success of Christianity at that time in history. If we are honest with ourselves, such rigor does not seem to be evident (much) in our nation today. Don't get me wrong, many churches are doing a wonderful job of spreading the gospel. However, I do think that there is a fear to "not offend" when it comes to preaching in public.

Recall what had happened to that 80-yr.-old woman who appeared at a "No on Prop. 8" rally. You can read about the incident here or at my Protect Biblical Marriage blog.

The anchors of the news show got one thing wrong. They claimed that there was a "lot of hate on both sides."

Nope!

A lot of hate from the rabid, homosexual activists - yes.

If you look closely at one point in the video, the 80-yr.-old woman can be seen mouthing the words to those who were attacking her, "I love you." Of course, it was so noisy because of the rabid hate being spewed by the demonstrators, no one could hear her words.

Crazie Lefties Attack Old Lady At "No on 8" Protest

She is certainly a brave woman to show up there and try to minister the love of Jesus Christ and what He did for ALL sinners at the cross.

We are witnessing Biblical prophecy right before our very eyes!

Jesus told us to watch for the signs of his return. In Scripture, he said that the world would be, "as in the Days of Noah, and, as in the Days of Lot."

In the November issue of Dr. David Jeremiah's Turning Points magazine and devotional, the title on the cover reads "The Urgency."

Inside, there is a true story about Cody Thorpe and his team of emergency responders.

They hovered in the storm over Lake Saint Clair on the Canadian border. It was just after 2 a.m. on the morning of May 25, 2008. A fishing boat had sunk several hours before, having been sideswiped by a large cruiser. Because of the frigid waters, there was scant hope for any of the three victims - father, mother, or daughter. Spying a dim light, Cody rappelled from the helicopter into the lake. When he saw the form of a man waving a dying flashlight, Cody swam over to him and suddenly found himself fighting for survival with the hysterical man.

Though Thorpe's suit was breached, he was able to drag the struggling man to the rescue bucket of the helicopter before he became completely waterlogged. He then grabbed the daughter, who was floating face down in the water and performed CPR on her. She didn't survive. The mother's body was found not to far away.

Maximum survival time in the 50-degree waters of Lake Saint Clair was only two to four hours, depending on body type.

Still, Thorpe and his buddies are troubled by the thought they could have done more. "If we would have got the word sooner," said one of them, "got out there sooner, maybe we could have saved one more life. If, if, if..."

I am reminded of another man who expressed his own sense of urgency. When Pastor Rick Warren's dad was dying, he told his son, (paraphrased because I can't locate the book at the moment) 'reach one more for Jesus.' Warren's dad said this over and over again until he passed away into eternity. It had such a tremendous impact on Warren that he has now built a massive church and following. [Note: as regular readers know, I don't agree with some of Warren's teachings. My main concern was his omission of the need for repentance (which relates to this post and will be subject of an upcoming post) before asking Jesus into one's heart for salvation. However, the urgency that his dad expressed was relevant to this post.]

Although I don't know the 80-yr.-old woman's background and history, the video of her carrying the large cross to the "No on Prop. 8" protest and seeing her mouth the words - "I love you" - while blowing a kiss towards all of the homosexual activists that were screaming and raging against her, spoke volumes about the reason for her presence there. I think that she had her own "sense of urgency" to witness to the people at that protest.

Have you ever noticed that many times, it is older American Christians who venture out and do such brave acts as that woman did on that day? I think that it is very true that the older we get (as Christian believers) the more we realize that no matter what, our very own personal day with destiny to meet the Lord (if he tarries) is at hand! Therefore, that sense of urgency is redoubled for us.

Think about how many people have seen this incident. It has been broadcast everywhere. Some may not have noticed what I have described above about evidence of her true intentions for being there. But I'm sure that many others DID NOTICE.

That woman has a divine sense of urgency.

Dr. Jeremiah writes:

Rescuers live with a sense of urgency. As we saw in the previous article, Jesus is the Ultimate Rescuer. At just the right moment, He rappelled into history, descending from the Ivory Palaces of heaven into a dark, dangerous, and despairing world. He came to rescue the perishing.

After His resurrection, rather than remain on Planet Earth for the next 2,000 years, He commissioned His followers to go in His Name, seeking the lost and making disciples. That mission has made its way down to you and me, and we need a divine sense of urgency. We don't know how much longer before Christ comes again. We're living in the last days, and if there was ever a generation that needed to be faithful, it's us. You and I are God's Ultimate Rescuers - bringing people to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and it should be our constant burden.

The entire article is wonderful and worth the read. You can subscribe to this monthly devotional free at Dr. David Jeremiah.org

To sum up:

1. Rescuers live with a sense of urgency.

2. To be rescuers, we need a deep sense of burden.

3. Sometimes we load our lives with so much "cargo" that we have little room left for souls.

The Christians who have changed the world are those who are compelled by the love of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:14). They say, like Paul, "Woe is me if I do not [share] the gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16). They say with Peter, "We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard" (Acts 4:20).

HT: Dr. David Jeremiah.org

Webcast For Marriage - Oct. 1st!

Important Webcast for Marriage!

While only those 18 and older will be voting on Proposition 8 next month, their decision will have the greatest impact on those unable to vote: children. Young people are constantly bombarded with messages in the media and at school that homosexuality and same-sex marriage are acceptable and good for our society. Many are confused by the conflict that arises between the culture and their family's morality. Pastor Miles McPherson of Rock Church in San Diego is particularly concerned about the impact of homosexuality on young people.

Tomorrow [TONIGHT! OCTOBER 1ST!] his church will hold a special rally for young people that will be broadcast throughout the state and nation. We encourage you to tune in and help young people you know better understand this crucial issue. The Fine Line: a Rally for Youth, Young Adults, and Parents

The Fine Line: a Rally for Youth, Young Adults, and Parents will be held at 7 p.m., Wednesday, October 1, 2008, at the Rock Church in San Diego. The non-partisan event is free and open to the public.

The Fine Line also will be broadcast live via satellite to approximately 150 churches throughout California who have signed up with the CCN Network. (Locations may be found by going to http://www.iprotectmarriage.com/.)

The iProtectMarriage.com website is also prepared to live stream the event to thousands of users statewide.


"The goal of The Fine Line is to equip and empower young people and their parents to engage on this issue, and go out and DO something," said Miles McPherson, senior pastor of the Rock Church, and a former professional football player with the San Diego Chargers. "The church is under attack. Marriage as designed by God, between a man and a woman, is under attack. We need to motivate young people to be informed, to be strong, to be out there in the real world, confident and active."

The event will be simulcast by Church Communication Network from the Rock Church, San Diego's largest Christian congregation and one of the fastest growing churches in the United States. Known for its multicultural and innovative worship and community service, the Rock features a high-tech sanctuary that seats 3,500. The Mountain View, Calif., based Church Communication Network provides programming in an array of ministry areas.

The youth-oriented evening will include music by rock groups the Katinas and Stellar Kart, and McPherson will speak. Live and video guests will include Ron Luce of Teen Mania, a youth outreach organization; Sean McDowell, a youth oriented Christian apologist; Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason, an organization that trains Christians to think clearly about their faith; Yvette Schneider of Exodus International, a nonprofit, interdenominational Christian organization promoting the message of freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ; skate pros Brian Sumner and Christian Hosoi; and Kyle Loza, pro freestyle motocross rider and X Games gold medalist.

The program will culminate with an interactive panel in which speakers will present information on why we should vote yes Nov. 4 on Proposition 8, the Protect Marriage Amendment.

The Fine Line is one of three planned simulcast events in support of Proposition 8. Others include a broadcast presentation for pastors and Christian leaders which took place last Thursday, Sept. 25, and a future broadcast presentation to churches Sunday, Oct. 19.

Additional Resources:

The Rock Church

Exodus International

Sean McDowell

Stand To Reason

Teen Mania

Additional Upcoming Events to Support Proposition 8

The following are upcoming events sponsored by various Protect Marriage coalition members in support of Proposition 8.

Oct. 02, 2008 Orange County Protect Marriage Townhall
When: October 02, 2008
Where: Covenant Presbyterian Church (St. Andrews Hall)
1855 N. Orange Olive Road
Orange, CA 92865

Oct. 09, 2008 San Bernardino Protect Marriage Townhall
When: October 09, 2008
Where: Echos of Faith Christian Center
11255 Central Ave.
Ontario, CA 91762


Oct.11, 2008 Auburn Town Hall Rally
When: October 11, 2008
11:00 - 12:00 a.m.
Where: Auburn Library Garden Theater
350 Nevada St
Auburn, CA

Oct. 19, 2008 Ventura County Federalist Society, "Same-Sex Marriage in California: Legal Issues"
When: October 19, 2008
Where: California Lutheran University - Lundgren Events Center
60 West Olson Road
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360

More on Proposition 8


Donate to Yes On Proposition 8 Today!


Three R's of Proposition 8


The Ten Declarations For Protecting Biblical Marriage


Legal Rights of Pastors



Is Your Church Participating in Citizen Sunday?



The Legality of Voter Registration in Churches



Quotes on CHRISTIAN CIVIL DUTY

CHRISTIAN CIVIL DUTY

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."


-- John Jay, President of the Continental Congress
and first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court


"God commands you to choose for rulers, 'just men who will rule in the fear of God.' . . . if the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted."


-- Noah Webster, author of the first American dictionary


"When we [Christians] withhold our influence and participation, we yield by default to those who promote immoral and destructive policies."


-- Dr. James Dobson


"If America is to survive, we must elect more God-centered men and women to public office; individuals who seek Divine guidance in the affairs of state."


-- Rev. Billy Graham


THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM

"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."


-- President John F. Kennedy, 1961 Inaugural Address


"We believe that all men are created equal, because they are created in the image of God."


-- President Harry S Truman, 1948 Inaugural Address


"The founding fathers had to refer to the Creator in order to make their revolutionary experiment make sense; it was because "all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" that men could dare to be free."


-- President Dwight D. Eisenhower, in an article
for the Episcopal Churchnews Magazine



RELIGION AND MORALITY

"How could a society fail to perish if, while the political bond is relaxed [for freedom], the moral bond were not tightened? And what makes a people master of itself if it has not submitted to God?"


-- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America


"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government."


-- President George Washington, 1796 Farewell Address


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."


-- President John Adams, 1798 letter
to a Massachusetts militia division


"The principal of equality . . . follows inevitably from belief in the brotherhood of man through the fatherhood of God."


-- President Calvin Coolidge, 1924
address to the Holy Name Society


"The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we can emphasize that enough these days.

"If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State."



-- President Harry S Truman, 1950 address
to the Attorney General's Conference





*Note: many of these quotes are taken from William J. Federer's Three Secular Reasons Why America Should Be Under God


HT: Yes On Proposition 8.com

*******

Update @ 9:34 a.m. PT:

Another Obamabot video that YOU MUST SEE!
Fox News Channel website asks:

YOU DECIDE! Obama Kids Video: Cute or Creepy?

Go and post your comments!!!
My vote? CREEPY!!!

HT: ChesterStreet where I originally got the chance to view the entire video.

Prophecy: Modern Europe...Ancient Rome

This morning, I watched the Turning Point T.V. broadcast of Dr. David Jeremiah on the topic of "Modern Europe...Ancient Rome."

How exciting it is to see biblical prophecy coming to fruition right before our very eyes! This is another example, and brief study, of how ancient prophets in the Bible (in this case, Daniel) prophesied about what the world would be like the closer we get to the Rapture, the rise of the Antichrist, and then Jesus' second coming.

Sunday, September 28, 2008
Series: What In the World Is Going On?
Ten Prophetic Clues You Cannot Afford to Ignore

Video link of today's broadcast:

Modern Europe...Ancient Rome



If you are a Christian - you should view this video message!

If you are not a Christian - my advice to you is that you MUST view this video message!

Kevin Kaatz - (you are currently studying "the Christian religion," right?); Joe Brummer - (you used to be a believer for 30 years - right?); Mike Rucker - (you consider yourself to adhere more towards "Universalism" - right?); those of a different religion (Umm Yasmin?); all of the lurkers; all of the "Anonymous" people who comment at this blog, all of the non-believers who visit here...are you willing to listen?

Will you watch and listen carefully to the broadcast and share your thoughts afterwards?

P.S. If your time is short (physically, as well as spiritually - if you are not saved by Jesus Christ!), watch the brief introduction (it's important to the entire message) then fast forward past the worship music to view the message.

HT: LightSource.com

Good To Infiltrate Heretical Territory - Or Not?

Ran across a blog called Slaughter of the Sheep. There is an interesting conversation going on between myself and Ken Silva in the "Robert Schuller, Ravi Zacharias and the Rethink Conference 2009" thread.

After you read the post at the above link, you will notice several really good comments. For this post, I am re-posting just the ones between Ken Silva and I (so far):

I know for a FACT that Miles McPherson is attending to share the Biblical Truth to all who will be there. He did the same thing last year. He does not water down the true Gospel message for ANYONE.

Perhaps Ravi Z. is doing the same? Just a thought.

Perhaps it is necessary in this day and age of heresy and apostasy to infiltrate the heretics and apostates in order to steer them back in the right direction?

If they don’t, THAT’S when the Sola Scriptura Bible-based leaders may have to eventually “shake the dust off their sandals.”

By: Christinewjc on September 15, 2008
at 4:31 pm

Ken's reply:

“Perhaps it is necessary in this day and age of heresy and apostasy to infiltrate the heretics and apostates in order to steer them back in the right direction?”

Or maybe this day and age of heresy and apostasy is a judgment from God ala 1 Peter 4:17 because we’ve allowed the infiltration of these heretics and apostates who refused to be steered back in the right direction?
By: Ken Silva on September 15, 2008
at 8:02 pm

Very true, Ken. However, I’d like to know your opinion of Pastor Miles’ attempts to share the truth at their heretical get-togethers?

Speaking of “refusal to be steered back”, the “gay christian” movement is a perfect example of those who refuse to be steered back in the right direction. Several other bloggers and I have posted biblical evidence of their heresy - but they don’t care - AT ALL. What matters most is their “feelings.”

When do we “shake the dust off our sandals” in such a case? I’m not sure - are you?

I, and many others, keep trying to reach them. Sometimes we just need to pray from them.
By: Christinewjc on September 15, 2008
at 8:33 pm

Christine,

Please know I say this gently, k. I’ve not been impressed with what I’ve seen from McPherson as yet. The Adam and Eve “blinged out” opening of the new venue was not right.

That said, in a setting like ReThink he’d be dealing with a language barrier. By that I mean, as with Ray Comfort at the Word Faith conference, these people reinterpret Christian terminology.

For example to Rob ert Schuller “sin” is “negative self-esteem” so unless one very specifically defines their terms those to whom they “witness” to simply think they agree. The speakers there would all claim to be Christians anyway.
By: Ken Silva on September 15, 2008
at 9:30 pm

Oops…need to correct my last sentence. Meant to write:

“I, and many others, keep trying to reach them. Sometimes we just need to pray for them.”

Ken,

I am disappointed to hear that you are not “impressed” with Miles McPherson, but that is certainly your right.

I am not sure where you got this from:

The Adam and Eve “blinged out” opening of the new venue was not right.

Oftentimes, Pastor Miles says things with the kind of verbiage that young people can identify with. It is not meant to mock or replace the truth of God’s Word on the subject at hand.

I’m learning not to be too picayune about such things. As long as the RESULTS do not compromise the Gospel message or what is contained in God’s Word, then using terms that I’m not personally familiar with doesn’t bother me.

I will admit to you that I had the same reservations about Miles’ appearance(s) at both the “ReThink” conference and (especially!!) “The Secret” conference. However, when I listened to his presentation (and saw the results of people who attended that were searching for SOMETHING - but not knowing that they needed Jesus Christ) and then found out that out of all of the speakers, they saw the truth being shared by Miles - I had a different perspective on why he attended.
By: Christinewjc on September 16, 2008
at 12:57 pm

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

One more brief point. When Miles was backstage, the previous speaker at The Secret conference was Tony Robbins. He told Pastor Miles (paraphrased here), ‘None of us believe in this “Secret bull****.’ Glad you are here to share the truth.’

Admittedly, it takes a very strong Christian pastor, leader and apologist to go into “heresy territory” and share the Gospel Truth. I, and the thousands who attend The Rock Church see this unique ability in Pastor Miles.
By: Christinewjc on September 16, 2008
at 1:02 pm

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Note that my last two comments are awaiting moderation.

What do you think of this exchange?

As a born-again, Bible-believing Christian, what are your thoughts about "infiltrating" heretical groups and conferences and sharing the Gospel Truth with the audiences there?

Do you think that this type of action just might be badly needed in this day and age?

Or, do you think that showing up for such conferences damages the credibility of any born-again, Bible believing and teaching pastor/speaker/evangelist?

HT: Slaughtering the Sheep blog

P.S. Opinions among Christians on this are probably all over the place, so don't hesitate to write just because you disagree with mine.

Lack Of Real Wisdom?

Received a comment this morning from someone who took me to task for my labeling of GLBT people as "confused." Apparently, this commenter believes that the post showed a "lack of real wisdom" on my part. I have already responded, but please feel free to share any thoughts and comments (whether you agree or disagree) you may have on this issue.

Here is the original post.

Here is a copy of the comment:

neverlosethatfeeling said...
I know this thread is a month old, but for a site that proposes to talk wisdom, I'm surely not seeing much evidence of introspection in this article.

Your idea that gay people are 'confused' is unrefined and hyperbolic; calling all gay people everywhere (regardless of the obvious dissimilarities between gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals) confused is a pretty ungracious move, and by trying to obliterate the differences between them, you reduce your ability to make sense of individual gays and lesbians. The word 'confused' shouldn't be a rhetorical weapon with which you discredit people.

The cruelty of the word 'confused' is like applying the word 'retarded' to a non-retarded person: it's slander, and it's demeaning. Do you really mean to say that you are more informed about a gay person's sexuality than they are? Or a transgendered person?

Lots of gays and lesbians seem 'confused' about their sexual preference: when they are in denial about who they are attracted to and trying to fit in and 'become' heterosexual, "confused" is a word you hear a lot.

But it diminishes your ability to listen to people if you merely label them (or your past self!) 'confused' and pretend that, by stringing together ad-hominem criticisms and some half-digested pop science you've conquered with Reason. It shows you lack patience. It's a bully tactic that hints at a lack of real wisdom, and an inability to address oneself to the person in front of you.

And finally, it's not constructive. It comes off as pedantic, crude, and lacking in charity. And if you really do possess the Truth, with all your riches you think you'd be able to afford some good charity. Yes, even to people you think are committing an abominable evil. Please, please don't talk this way anymore.

August 30, 2008 5:02:00 AM PDT

My reply:


neverlosethatfeeling,

Thank you for stopping by and expressing your opinion. Though we most likely will never agree on this subject, I appreciate that you took the time to comment.

I will begin with one area of agreement regarding your comment.

I agree that all of the adjectives described through the acronym GLBT have definite dissimilarities about them. However, I think that my choice of the term "confused" is applicable and does not necessarily have to be seen as terribly derogatory.

If you look at the various meanings of the word "confused" you will note that it does contain several different points.

If I were to choose which definitions more accurately describe what I am attempting to convey here, I would select the following:

5. to combine without order; jumble; disorder: Try not to confuse the papers on the desk.
6. Archaic. to bring to ruin or naught.

To disconcert is to disturb one's mind by irritation, perplexities, etc

To make opaque; blur

To mistake (for another): confused effusiveness with affection.
To make opaque; blur: "The old labels ... confuse debate instead of clarifying it" (Christopher Lasch).
To assemble without order or sense; jumble.
Archaic To bring to ruination.

intr.
To make something unclear or incomprehensible: a new tax code that only further confuses.


Lacking logical order or sense: a confused set of instructions.
Chaotic; jumbled: a confused mass of papers on the floor.

If you will notice, I did not select the meaning(s) of the word which would suggest "lack of intelligence or understanding." Therefore, this eliminates the idea that I am using such a term as some people would use the term "retarded."

I realize that many glbt people are highly intelligent and successful in their lives. That's not the kind of confusion that I mean here.

What I am saying is what the portions of the definition I have chosen from the list indicate.

The reason that I have done this is precisely because our God of the Bible is not a God of confusion. He is a God of order.

Human beings confuse things.

I won't go into great detail here because you can read more about this elsewhere on this blog. Just type in "homosexuality" and/or "radical homosexual agenda" into the blog search box.

Briefly, I will say that there are people who have different purposes in mind when expressing their sexual orientation and proclivities. Some want approval. Some are actively trying to sway children away from what their parents (and thus, the Bible) teaches them regarding God's plan for proper sexuality. I will also say that many unsaved heterosexuals have their own brand of sexual confusion in this area. Adultery, fornication, pedophilia, rape, bestiality and porn are just a few.

[Update on 8/31/08 - Just as Susan Smith mentioned in her comment here, Christians can backslide and struggle with sin. Here is a link to an awful situation regarding a "pastor" who lied about having cancer to hide his p()rn addiction. One has to wonder whether or not this person was truly born-again. If he is genuinely saved, then he obviously did not take the next step towards sanctification through making Christ Lord over his life. When you read that article, you will find that the man had a vomiting problem. P()rn can certainly be so disgusting - that the symptom is real. Guilt, shame, secretiveness, lying, sexual immorality, and gross sexual sin will do that to a person. Perhaps this is why God created us to react in such a way towards sin. The only way out from suffering its penalty (including the physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual harm) is repentance (which is not only asking for forgiveness - but turning away from former sins). This heterosexual man's terrible addiction was not freedom - it was bondage. Sin is bondage. That is why Jesus told us that "the truth will set you free."]

However, the difference is that not many heterosexuals get to go into the public schools and "teach" such sexual deviancy to the students. Homosexual activists are busy polluting young minds with sexual confusion and deviation that can (and often does) lead to ruination - which is another description of the term "confused."

I could not help but noticed that you capitalized the term "reason." Was this intentional? If so, is reason your god?

Christian author and apologist, R.C. Sproul once said, "Love of wisdom is to discover ultimate reality."

Truth is reality, whereas philosophy (while utilizing reason) is trying to discover reality.

We each start somewhere. What is your worldview?

God gave us a conscience. However, He also warned us that we can be captivated by the world's lies. (See Romans 12:2) We are told in Scripture that we need to be born again through Christ and thus have the renewing of the mind.

The Bible informs us that we need to seek to be "meta morphed" - a.k.a. "transformed" by the "renewing of our minds." (See 2 Corinthians 3:18)

Christian believers are highly concerned with the anti-God, anti-Biblical teachings that are going on in our nation. Destruction of the consciences of our children is at work. We are actively working to prevent such an onslaught.

Sin has blinded many to God's Truth. Do you believe there is such a thing as absolute truth? If so, where would you look for it? Where would you find it?

The downside of not knowing Jesus Christ or His Word, the Bible and all that it instructs is that we will be conformed, instead, to the world. (See Colossians 2:8)

My goal at this blog is to carry out Jesus' command of The Great Commission. This includes sharing the Gospel. Part of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ is to inform people of the bad news - that we are all sinners desperately in need of the Savior. The Cross of Christ is an offense to those who are perishing. Look at how offended you were when I only used the word "confused."

My vision in this effort is to help others see and realize the joy that can be theirs when they learn and apply God's Word to their lives.

My mission is to fellowship with people who are seeking answers, share the gospel message and help lead them to Christ. I want to encourage new believers towards the study of God's Word in order for them to be able to discern truth from error.

I truly believe that once a person is born again in Christ, he/she will be led by the Holy Spirit to discern and apply God's Word - which, by the way, ultimately fulfills every need.

I am committed to applying God's Word in every area of my life and help show others the way towards reconciliation with God - even if it means that people may be offended by what I share.

Jesus said, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul?"

My ultimate goal is to evangelize in this confused and hurting world. I can only point in the direction of Jesus Christ. He does the saving.

Think about this.

If evangelizing is all about making people feel comfortable in their particular sinful proclivities, then the gay-behavior-affirming churches are right.

However, If evangelizing is all about pointing out that we are all sinners in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ; and the only way into His Kingdom is through repentance of sin at the foot of the cross for our redemption - then the born again, Bible believing, Christ loving, saved followers are right.

Bottom line? God is right! And we discover Him and His Truth through the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life - no one comes to the Father except by Him (see John 14:6)! The Bible is special revelation about Jesus Christ. It is God's Love Book to this sinful world. Nothing else compares!