Not God's Type: A Rational Academic Finds a Radical Faith

The following is an email newletter that I received today from Greg Koukl's Stand to Reason Apologetics ministry. The book that is introduced in the essay sounds like a book that every Christian could definitely benefit from reading!

Christine

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Dear Christine,

How do you reach out to someone who is not looking for God and does not even believe He exists? That’s a question I’ve asked myself more than once, which is why the opening lines of a little book I recently stumbled across immediately grabbed my attention:

"This book sets out to do what might seem to be a straight- forward task: to recount the experiences of a few months in my life in which I walked away from atheism and entered into Christian faith.

Nothing is ever as simple as that. It is no light matter to meet God after having denied Him all one’s life."

A delightful read—and also a fascinating radio interview with STR— followed. The book, Not God’s Type—A Rational Academic Finds a Radical Faith, is a memoir by Holly Ordway of her journey from atheism to Christ.

The guide God used to shepherd Holly on her pilgrimage was not a professional apologist, but rather her fencing coach—an ordinary, thoughtful Christian named Josh in whom she saw Jesus for an entire year before the name “Jesus” ever came up in conversation.

Josh was the personification of wisdom—“an artful method”—the second critical characteristic of a good ambassador. Here are some of the lessons I gleaned from Holly’s account of her friendship with Josh and his wife, Heidi.

One, respect people. Period. Treat others as special in God’s eyes regardless of their spiritual condition. To Josh, Holly wasn’t a heathen to be converted, but a human to be valued. He never reproached her for her unbelief, but treated her with genuine grace, dignity, and honor. He also did not fulfill any of the negative stereotypes she had of Christians. Instead, his character silently spoke volumes.

Two, begin at their beginning. Start at square one for that person. The basic message of forgiveness rests upon a number of assumptions about God, morality, guilt, Jesus, and more. Don’t presume the other person has crossed all those bridges.

“What’s helpful varies from person to person,” Holly pointed out. “I was glad for Josh’s willingness to be a guide as I entered this strange new territory, rather than trying to choose the path for me.” Like Josh, be a coach, a guide for the journey. Don’t choose the path for them. Answer their questions first, not the questions you think they should be asking.

Three, don’t push. “Josh didn’t try to close the deal on me—ever,” Holly wrote. If he had, she would have bolted. “Pressing for a decision [too early] would have been a disaster. It would have taken very little to make me close up and turn away, vulnerable and confused as I was.”

Don’t be afraid to move slowly. People need time to think, to digest, to reflect before they can ultimately commit. Don’t press for a “decision” for Christ when a conversion to Christ is what’s necessary. Trust the Spirit to do the deep work. Remember, God is in control.

Four, use questions. Josh consistently used carefully crafted questions to make his point. “If you could do something wrong that would benefit yourself,” he asked, “and you knew that no one would ever know about it, would you do it?” When Holly said no, he asked, “Why not? If there is no God, why be moral when it would benefit you personally to be immoral?” Josh was not trying to score points in an argument. Instead, he was probing the tension in Holly’s worldview, graciously challenging her inconsistency while presenting new ideas for her to consider.

Five, be clear. Make the central issues unmistakable. When Holly asked Josh what would happen to her when she died, he told her the truth—simply, without ambiguity, but without animosity. “I believe we will come before God in judgment,” he said, “and He will give each person either perfect justice or perfect mercy.” When asked, “What, exactly, would I be getting myself into?,” Josh told her two things that Jesus said: “My yoke is light,” and “Take up your cross and follow Me.” “I’ll let you ponder that.”

Josh was especially deft at navigating the challenge that Holly’s situation presented. Sensitivity like his is developed over time, learning how to proceed with wisdom—“an artful method”—based on knowledge—“an accurately informed mind.”

- Written by Greg Koukl

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About the book:

Not God's Type: A Rational Academic Finds a Radical Faith
Holly Ordway

Holly Ordway should never have become a Christian. A young, white, highly educated atheist and professor of English, she represents the kind of person that many observers of religion say cannot be converted anymore—a demographic supposedly beyond the reach of the church in postmodern America. Yet through a series of conversations with a wise and patient mentor, Ordway not only became convinced of God's existence, but also embraced Jesus as her Savior and Lord.

In this memoir of her conversion, Ordway turns her analytical mind toward the path that leads from darkness to light—from death to life.Simultaneously encouraging and bracing, she offers a bold testimony to the ongoing power of the Gospel—a Gospel that can humble and transform even self-assured, accomplished, and secular-minded young professionals like herself.

Hat Tip:

Stand To Reason.org

Christians vs. Atheists in Discussions

In the comment section of this post I have been reading the continuing conversation between Ken McKnight and Gary Baker.

Some of the quips are quite humorous:

Gary asks Ken about:

"being the snarky idiot?"

Ken replies:

"Ta,ta, Gary. I hope you and your ego will be very happy together."

But then returns with:

"BTW Gary,

On at least two separate occasions I have complimented Christine on that very point.

It's not just liberals. I tried commenting on the Miss America controversy on the Alliance Defense Fund site. I was extremely polite, yet my comment was cut because I didn't parrot the party line."

Gary replies:

"I was expecting you to withdraw from the discussion. Generally happens to liberals of your intellectual caliber when repeatedly pressed for facts, evidence, and logic which neither their education nor mentality has prepared them for. I must confess disappointment however. You didn't even try to come up with reasonable replies, so I guess that makes you lazy as well as cowardly. Let me know when you grow a spine."

Of course, these are just small snippets of each comment. However, it brings to mind a question that I have had over the course of several years - both while running my discussion forum and this blog. Are deep, true, solid, non-biased, thoughtful, considerate, intelligent, polite, complimentary, uplifting, kind, inspiring, enthusiastic, acceptance of evangelizing attempts, and non-ridiculing discussions actually possible between atheists and Christians?

I have found that in rare moments, there are some areas of agreement. But oftentimes, the discussions are very confrontational.

Tonight, I was reading a comment written by GMPilot who was answering part of a comment written by Sothenes over at my Talk Wisdom forum and I found what he had written fascinating. Here is a copy of the brief discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sothenes

As far as fishing is concerned, imagine how the non-believer feels. He throws his hook into the water and doesn't catch anything. Does that mean there are no fish? Does he fish again because he lost faith in there being fish?

GMPilot:

You don't have to imagine how the non-believer feels, Sothenes; just ask one. It doesn't have to be me, but since I'm here...

I'm not trying to catch anything. It's only Christians like yourself that are seeking an ecclesiastic body count. Besides, the fish have been biting for nearly 2000 years. What sort of bait do you use? Fear of death? Awareness of their sin? Promise of eternal life? It would be interesting to know.

But every fisherman I know of has a story about 'the one that got away'. It checked out the lure, even nibbled at it; but once it was hooked, it fought with all its power to get off that hook, and win its life and freedom. Fishermen usually speak of that fish with grudging respect, because it wouldn't succumb to the trap.

Think of the non-believer as that sort of fish.

Take a look at their signature quotes:

Sothenes:

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."-GK Chesterton

GMPilot:

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken

"The next time someone asks you if you're a god, say yes." --"Ghostbusters"

We can see why GMPilot thinks of Christian faith as "succumbing to a trap" because his signature quote states, "Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I (he) holds in veneration -- courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."

So, how does one witness and attempt to evangelize someone with such an attitude?

Sothenes' signature quote combats GMPilot's view that "there is no God" with the quote: "If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."-GK Chesterton

Christian faith is courageous.

Christian faith is involved with clear thinking.

Christian faith is honest.

Christian faith is fairness.

Christian faith is, above all, the TRUTH!

However, a non-believer thinks that his "version" of "the truth" is completely opposite the Christian's view of truth.

So, this leads me to ask some questions:

1. Where do such conversations lead?
2. How do they usually end?
3. Are seeds of faith planted as a result?
4. Are seeds of doubt increased?
5. Can you think of more questions to add to this list?

As Christian believers who are involved with Jesus' Great Commission command to share the gospel with everyone we can, it is true that we may not know (this side of heaven) how many people we have positively influenced towards salvation in Christ.

I have found that skeptics/non-believers/atheists/agnostics sometimes tell me that my witnessing efforts have actually driven them further away from faith in Jesus Christ. They claim that my judgmental attitude and (fill in the blank!) have solidified their skepticism.

Should believers be concerned about this?

My opinion?

No.

The reason being that a non-believer is in no better (or worse) position in having heard the gospel shared in a perceived "wrong way" vs. not hearing the gospel at all.

Consider the fact that they were separated from God in the first place, so any additional negative influence does not change their destiny in eternity.

However, a seed planted (even if viewed as being planted poorly by the Christian evangelist according to the skeptic) could still sprout towards belief in Christ as a result in the future. This would change the destiny of the already condemned non-believer towards heaven.

Isaiah 57:15-21 NLT -

Isa 57:15 The high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, the Holy One, says this: "I live in that high and holy place with those whose spirits are contrite and humble. I refresh the humble and give new courage to those with repentant hearts.


Isa 57:16 For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always show my anger. If I did, all people would pass away--all the souls I have made.


Isa 57:17 I was angry and punished these greedy people. I withdrew myself from them, but they went right on sinning.


Isa 57:18 I have seen what they do, but I will heal them anyway! I will lead them and comfort those who mourn.


Isa 57:19 Then words of praise will be on their lips. May they have peace, both near and far, for I will heal them all," says the LORD.


Isa 57:20 "But those who still reject me are like the restless sea. It is never still but continually churns up mire and dirt.


Isa 57:21 There is no peace for the wicked," says my God.


Readers, what are your thoughts on this topic?

A Christian Convo re: Swimsuits & Miss CA [Video added]

Over at Camp On This I got into a conversation about Miss California - Carrie Prejean - and the objections that some Christians bring up about the swimsuit part of the Miss U.S.A. pageant competition. Of course, Christian believers can disagree on issues like this one. Perhaps you might agree with what Byron Harvey has written. However, I felt led to stand up for Carrie's decision to enter into pageantry and state why I (personally) think that the swimsuit portion of the competition should not be deemed as something negative that would take away from her Christian witness.

Here is a copy of the first comment:

Byron Harvey said...
Very respectfully, Steve, I think that the issue of the very immodest bikini she was wearing is a significant part of the issue here, because in your original post, you laud not only her (laudable!) answer regarding "gay marriage", but you lift her up as, effectively, a role model with many opportunities to share her faith in Christ, etc. If you'd stopped at lauding her response only, I'd agree with you, but I argue that while she may be a fine person in many respects, and gave a gutsy answer, her testimony is compromised by her quite immodest choice in attire. She wanted to be, she said, "biblically correct", which I applaud, but that outfit was anything but, and I think that before we lift her up as a paragon of Christian witness, we consider the quite contradictory messages that she sent on that evening.

Though I'm not sure you're doing this, Steve, I believe it's a shame when Christians "swallow" a lot of stuff just to lift up people who get it right in some ways. I agree with a lot of the things Rush Limbaugh says, but he's no paragon of virtue; similarly, Carrie Prejean's total performance that evening is far more a mixed bag than I think your words suggest.

21:01

Christinewjc said...
Byron,

I'm sure that Steve will have a better reply than mine, but my response is that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" however, so is lust.

21:48

Byron Harvey said...
Thanks, Christine, and I'm eager for Steve's response, but the issue isn't lust on the part of the looker (though her outfit certainly could incite lust easily, it seems to me), but the modesty appropriate for one who is "biblically correct", in her words. For me, it's simple: if a Christian young lady, in any circumstance, asked me, "would wearing this outfit bring honor to Christ, Pastor", there wouldn't be any hesitation: absolutely not. I'm not sure that women sometimes understand the male mind, how quickly men can be led to lustful thoughts under any circumstances, and how readily such apparel worn by beautiful young ladies does so. And don't kid yourselves: it ain't just me, ladies, it's every red-blooded man in America (endemic to our fallen maleness). Here's the bottom line question:
Steve, would you ever encourage a sincere Christ-following young lady to wear such an outfit, under any circumstances? And if not, how does Miss California get a pass, merely on the basis of one great answer?

21:57

Byron,

I can understand your feeling that way. Perhaps the reason that I don't see things your way is because of our gender difference.

With that said, let me see if I can make my point in another way.

Let's pretend that there was such a thing as a middle-aged "Ms. U.S.A. pageant" and I was the CA representative. As a 54 year old woman, I would personally absolutely HATE to put on a bikini and walk across a stage in it. I'd rather wear one like the illustration at the top of this post! Of course my body would NEVER get the same reaction (more like laughter!!) as Carrie's beautiful figure obviously gets! LOL! However, if such an act gave me the possible opportunity to witness for Christ in front of millions (well, probably a lot less would watch it!) of people - then, for HIM - I would do it.

My obviously dopey illustration is meant to show that two different reactions to the "physical" presence of the Christian isn't what matters the most. If I got the same question while standing up there and answered it in a similar way - then both of us would have accomplished a similar end. So, my questions to you are - is one shameful and not the other? Would both be considered shameful?

Carrie Prejean is going to appear at the Rock Church (Pastor Miles McPherson) this Sunday. I will share what she has to say at the service in a future blog post.

From what I have heard her say in dozens of T.V. interviews, she wanted to use the Miss U.S.A. position (as well as her current Miss California role) to share the love of Christ - in any capacity that she can. Therefore, I can safely say that she isn't in pageantry for the wrong reasons.

You may see her answer as just "one moment" of standing up for Christ - but sometimes, that is all it takes to start a spark of a movement for the Kingdom.

Her steadfast faith, courage to speak the truth, grace in fighting back disgusting rhetoric against her with nothing but kindness and goodness, and pointing to Jesus Christ for the reason she lives is a powerful testament and example for young people. Her courage will bring forth many more courageous young women (and men) to speak boldly for Christ - even when a firestorm of controversy and protest might erupt.

Carrie was David to Perez Hilton's Goliath. Her answer didn't physically "kill the beast", but it certainly stunned him! It also stunned many more like him. Those celebrities who took his side came out to share in the bashing party.

Ephesians 6 comes to mind.

Especially these verses:

Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;


Eph 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:


Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond or free.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].


Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;


Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

This last verse is a life verse for me:


Eph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


Readers - what are your thoughts on this matter?

Hat Tip:

Camp On This

Blue Letter Bible

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P.S. Will post any additional responses as they appear at Camp on This

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Update:

Byron replies:

Byron Harvey said...
Christine,

Great analogy--and I'm sure that the sight of me, a 48-year-old guy, in a Speedo would provoke a similar reaction!

Now, that said, here's what your rationale sounds like; correct me if I miss it: "the end ("speaking for Christ to millions") justifies the means" (dressing in an inappropriate outfit--inappropriate, IMHO, for 54-year-olds and young ladies alike, though one could, I suppose, make the argument that the "lust factor" is lessened when such garments are displayed on us middle-aged folk!). It's never right to do wrong to do right, I believe--and I think Steve believes that--and I think that's what your reasoning comes off as. To use a different analogy, what if instead of wearing a skimpy bikini, she had performed in a talent portion (does Miss USA have such? I don't know...) by singing some suggestive song, rapping out a nice hip-hop tune with its vulgarity instead of dressing so immodestly? I'd hope that you'd agree with me that such actions would compromise her witness, making her words ring more hollow than they might otherwise. As I see it, there's no difference whatever.

I don't mean to suggest, by the way, that Miss Prejean's answer was the only moment of her "standing up for Christ"; I know nothing of her life, and from what you've said, it seems she does so on more than one occasion, and that's great. My only point is that her words are compromised by her immodesty.

I wouldn't begin to presume to question her motives for being in the Miss USA pageant; it may well be that everything she says is true about wanting to gain a platform to speak for Christ. But that's not the point at all; it's not why she did it, but what she did. You suggest that other young ladies might be emboldened to speak up for Christ; I'd counter with the just-as-likely scenario that other young ladies might join in our society's rush to jettison modesty, lowering (still further) any sense of Christian modesty, inciting more young men to lust as they parade their bodies barely clad. See what I'm driving at?

And still dying to hear our friend Steve's take...

By the way, I think Carla makes a trenchant point as well...

13:39

My reply coming shortly...

Feel free to comment!

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As I wrote in the comment section, my time at the computer is limited this weekend. I will be checking in periodically to release comments and when I have the opportunity, reply to the comments.

While briefly looking through my reading list, I ran across this video from TownHall.com where a CNN reporter tries to get Miss California to admit her political party affiliation. Carrie does a great job in steering the conversation back on topic:

CNN Reporter tries to get Miss California to admit her political party affiliation.

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Related articles:

Randy Thomasson blog: Miley vs. Jesus on marriage

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Update:

Christine wrote:

A thought came to my mind today.

In swimming competitions, men often wear those awful speedo swimsuits. They are very clingy...if you know what I mean.

Two questions.

Why is that not considered immodest?

Why would a Christian man not be considered a strong witness for Christ (if he is a believer) despite wearing such an article of clothing for a swimming competition?

Byron replied (the portion of his comment directed to me at Campi's blog):

And Christine, maybe somebody else will, but you won't get me defending Speedos on men (and you definitely won't get me wearing one!).

Byron wrote:

And Christine, maybe somebody else will, but you won't get me defending Speedos on men (and you definitely won't get me wearing one!).

Christine replied:

Would you do it for the Lord?

Would you do it if your wearing of a speedo in a competition allowed you the opportunity to share the Gospel of Christ and the truth of the Bible to millions of people?

P.S. Please see this article regarding celebrities who claim to be Christian and how they compromise the truth.

Randy Thomasson blog: Miley vs. Jesus on marriage

FYI - I brought our conversation over to my blog so feel free to comment there also.

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Update:
Received an email from The Rock Church. You can watch the 36 minute segment with Carrie Prejean online!

The Rock San Diego: Miss California

LIVE STREAMING OF MISS CALIFORNIA CARRIE PREJEAN AT THE ROCK - Watch 36 minute conversation live online

[NOTE: Only the 10:00 a.m. (PT) and 12:00 p.m. (PT) services will be available via live stream.]

Excerpt:

SAN DIEGO (April 24, 2009)—On-line viewers will be able to watch a live 36 minute conversation between Carrie Prejean, Miss California and Miss USA’s first runner up, and Miles McPherson, Senior Pastor of the Rock Church.

Prejean will appear at the Rock Church during all five services on Sunday April 26th. Prejean is a member of the Rock family and actively serves in church outreach ministries. The 10:00am and 12:00pm (pst) services will be streamed live, viewable at The Rock San Diego.org.

The Rock’s Senior Pastor Miles McPherson, spent time with Prejean in the critical hours following the pageant. They will share the story behind the controversy that we haven’t heard.

During the question and answer portion of Sunday’s Miss USA pageant, Prejean expressed her belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman, touching off a firestorm of widely publicized criticism from pageant judge and nationally known celebrity blogger Perez Hilton. In subsequent appearances, Prejean has stood fast in her morals and Biblical truths, refusing to compromise her faith.